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Post by Xaa on Jan 27, 2006 13:22:24 GMT -5
And yes, the one for today IS up, I posted it yesterday when I posted two.
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sol77
Junior Member
Posts: 18
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Post by sol77 on Jan 28, 2006 10:32:26 GMT -5
Oh no, poor Abel. That most be really terrifying. Still, it was written so comical that I couldn't help but laugh.
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sol77
Junior Member
Posts: 18
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Post by sol77 on Jan 29, 2006 12:25:06 GMT -5
That was powerful Xaa. Brain is making connections hither and dither just to try to figure out what is going on behind the scenes and what will happen next.
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Post by Kilarin on Feb 1, 2006 8:31:13 GMT -5
How horrific. The only way to survive is to condem everyone in heaven to non-existance. Hopefully they can find some way to reach a compromise. The theology in this universe is completely upside down. Of course, as we were warned, it's FANTASY, not an attempt to describe what the universe is really like. BUT, I find universes without any actual real "justice" disturbing. In a dualism where the only actual issues are Law vs Chaos, there aren't really any "good" guys. I DO have a complaint with Satin from WITHIN this universe's structure though. I have to disagree with her on the nature of free will (and the knowledge of good and evil, but I'll save that one for another day). Satin says that free will couldn't have actually existed if Adam and Eve had never eaten of the Fruit. I have to disagree. As long as the fruit existed, they were exercising their free will by choosing not to step out of God's will and eat the forbidden fruit. Anyway, VERY interesting story Xaa. Disturbing, but interesting.
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Post by Xaa on Feb 1, 2006 10:25:26 GMT -5
How horrific. The only way to survive is to condem everyone in heaven to non-existance. Mmmm... Well, kind of. You exist, but you don't *care* anymore. Your only thought is endless worship, the only emotion in your mind is love of God, and anyone who didn't make it to heaven... Well, it doesn't bother you, there is no sadness or regret in heaven, you just don't care. Well, not really. Odd as that may sound to some, that concept of heaven is a very common concept among believers of Abrahamic religions, and an extremely common explanation given by religious leaders to lay-people. Those who go to heaven spend eternity worshipping god, their only thought is love, they are eternally happy, they are never sad or regret what they have lost because there is no sadness in heaven, and so on. A common question people ask is "If I make it to heaven and my husband/wife/child does not, how could I ever possibly be happy?" And, the most common answer is "because you will be filled with the love of God, and all your sadness will be washed away." In other words, once you get to heaven, the thought that your loved one that didn't make it is burning in agony in Hell just doesn't bother you anymore. No, really! Try it on your local minister, and see if he doesn't give a similar answer. Odd as it may seem, this is a very common view of heaven. It's just that very few people actually look at the corrolary of that - you become a mindless love-zombie to God, and just don't care about anything else. Yes, you're happy. But you can't be anything BUT happy, either. Like a permanent high. Or a lobotomy. It's that stark and utter dichotomy (nobody wants a lobotomy, but many people's concept of heaven is pretty much like one) that struck me as being worthy of a story. Of course, since many adults spend all their free time with booze or other intoxicants attempting to reach this state in a more secular manner, it can't necessarily be said that this kind of state would be universally decried as a "bad thing." Something originally pointed out by Moorecock, yes. Correct - read Lilith's dialogue again. The key element is that Free Will, for the Adam and Eve of Satin's universe, was more like fire without matches, flint or steel. Satin's actions were necessary in her universe because it gave the Promethean spark those two needed to move on, mentally. It wasn't enough for them to be as children, saying "Daddy said not to do that, so I won't do that." They needed the more adult comprehension of "Father said not to do that because I would get hurt. So, because I honor him and don't want to get hurt, I won't do that." Moreover, their actions allow "Original Sin", which gets the rest of the ball rolling. See, the real question is "Why have 'Original Sin' in the first place?" If God knew that it was a possibility for Adam and Eve to eat of the Tree of Knowledge (which, by definition, gives them knowledge and understanding of good and evil), then why did he put the tree where they could get at it? After all, by definition, they were like children, totally innocent - they didn't know what good and evil was, because if they did, they wouldn't have needed to eat the fruit to learn about it. In essence, this is kind of like a parent putting a sharp knife out on a table where a toddler can get at it. Then, when the inevitable happens, instead of bandaging the wound and putting the knife where they can't get at it again, you kick the child out the front door and into the snow, lock the door behind them, and just let them fend for themselves in the wilderness. Crazy as that sounds, that's the essence of the Genesis story. Adam and Eve were innocent, and had no comprehension of good and evil (compare Gen 2:25 to the aftermath in 3:7). God tells them they can eat anything *except* the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge - if they eat that, they die (2:17, 3:3). The serpent comes along, and tempts these two innocent children - and worse, he tempts them with the absolute truth, telling them they will not die, but their eyes will be opened and they will become as God, knowing good and evil. (3:4-5). They eat, and that's exactly what happens (3:7-13). Interestingly, notice Adam's little dodge in 3:12, and Eve's dodge in 3:13. Adam basically lays blame on Eve, and partial blame on God who gave her to him. Eve, for her part, lays blame on the Serpent. For those who do NOT have kids, when you DO, you will hear this little dodge a LOT. "It's not MY fault, it's HER/HIS fault!" If you don't want to hear that dodge, then I strongly reccommend you only have one kid, because as soon as they both can walk or talk, you will hear them start to buck the blame for everything they do. In any event, after God calls the kids on their actions and they buck the blame, God then finishes the events of this part of the story by cursing Eve with tremendous pain and Adam with endless sweat-labor, then kicks both his children out of the house and into the snow and locks the door behind them (3:17-24). This begs the question of "why?" For the secular reader, if you discard the atheist's knee-jerk answer (it didn't happen to begin with), then the most obvious secular answer is "because that section of Genesis is taken almost word-for-word from ancient Babylonian and Sumerian myth, which also explains why there are two separate creation stories for Adam and Eve - one is the older Sumerian/Akkadian story." However, aside from the secular/atheist replies, the more in-depth answer is that because it all had a purpose. In our universe, this purpose is entirely up to debate depending on your religious background, education and beliefs. But, every theologian who believes the "Garden of Eden" story happened will tell you there was a purpose (after all, it couldn't have just been an accident, that would imply that God can make accidents and mistakes). In Satin's universe, this purpose is identified as being the necessity of permitting Adam and Eve free will, a female Prometheus handing mortals the spark of fire. And, in the end, if she doesn't figure out how to win her game against God, she'll end up chained to the rock as Prometheus did - with no convenient Hercules to come along later and set her free.
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Post by Kilarin on Feb 1, 2006 11:45:24 GMT -5
Kilarin: Xaa: Actually, I was refering to todays page (61) where Baal tells Satin that if she wins, "Heaven, and all it's inhabitants, and all that lies within, ceases to exist, returned to the guff". I'm familiar with the stance, but am unlikely to hear it from my minister. My church doesn't believe in eternal hell fire. We believe that Math 10:28 "rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" and Romn 6:23 "the wages of sin is death" and countless other texts indicate that the wicked are destroyed, not tortured for all eternity. Yeah, the Elric series was disturbing to say the least. The "Constantine" comic books also have a similiar universal structure. But they weren't toddlers. The biblical account does not give any indication of how long a period of time went by before Eve ate the fruit. They might have been in Eden for hundreds of years, we don't know. The serpent offered Eve a choice, trust God, or not. It was a choice that was simple enough for even an innocent person to make. Actually, it should have been EASIER for an innocent to make. There are, I feel, two routes to knowledge of Evil. As you pointed out: Some people are willing to learn about hot stoves without touching them. Some aren't. If Adam and Eve had chosen not to taste the fruit, they would have eventually understood Evil without getting blisters. Adam and Eve were innocent, but they were mature enough to be responsible for their own choices. They were given the simplest possible choice just to make certain there could be no confusion. If God is going to give us free will, then we MUST have the choice to walk out of his will, and take the consequences.
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Post by Xaa on Feb 1, 2006 12:49:03 GMT -5
Kilarin: Xaa: Actually, I was refering to todays page (61) where Baal tells Satin that if she wins, "Heaven, and all it's inhabitants, and all that lies within, ceases to exist, returned to the guff". Yep. In her defense, however, please note that not counting Angels and God, the number of souls in heaven at this point in the story is exactly zero. The destruction of heaven, in this story, is the presumed result of Satin winning, and the corollary to God winning. You see, the traditional view in most Abrahamic faiths is that when God wins (and his eventual victory is assumed), a state of heaven-on-earth begins. And, as there will no longer be suffering or pain, there is no longer a purpose for hell - it ceases to exist. By extension, if hell ceases to exist, those within it cease to exist. This is the explanation sometimes given for Romans 6:23 and similar verses which describe absolute destruction, in contradiction to other verses (such as Matthew 25:46) which describe eternal torment. Thus, if when God wins hell and everything in it poofs and we have heaven on earth, the corrolary is that if God loses, heaven and everything in it poofs, and we have hell on earth. In the story, it is presented as two flat outcomes which are dependent on the conflict between the character of God and the character of Satin Jones. Here in our world, of course, everyone assumes God is going to win in the end. Whether hell exists, what happens to those cast into it and whether it will exist forever are subjects of rather long and intricate theological debates which this story only capsulizes (think of it as a comic book version of "Pilgrim's Progress," only with really perky boobs). The bottom line, of course, is that in Satin's universe, this is how things work whether she likes it or not. In our world, the answers are less clear. For example, the term used in Matthew 25:26 is "colason", which means to chastise, or torment. In Luke 16:19-31, four times the rich man in the flames of Hell is described as being in anguish or torment. Also, in Revelations 14:11 and 20:10, the word torment is used to describe the fate of the unsaved. If those who fail the divine litmus test are simply destroyed, then they cannot be in torment or experience anguish, as it is impossible to torment someone who does not exist. Torment and anguish can only exist where there is continuity of consciousness to experience pain and regret. Yet, the problem with this is that it clearly contradicts other passages in both the old and new testament which describe anihilation - or, at least, permanent dissolution. Romans 6:23 is one, but there are several others in both the old and new testament that describe not pain and torment, but death and anihilation, clearly and unequivocally supporting your viewpoint. The bottom line, for our universe, is simply that the jury is out - nobody knows precisely what happens after death, because nobody's ever died and come back from the dead to file a report (well, one guy reportedly did in a rather excruciating process involving whips, nails and large hunks of wood, but he's not giving interviews to the TV media, so there we are). Meanwhile, every religion has their own viewpoint on the subject, all of which are contradictory, some of which are even contradictory within themselves, and all of which are as compatible as concrete and chocolate. For the purposes of this story, the explanation Baal gives Satin is presumed to be the correct explanation for the story universe, and (of course) has little or no bearing on the "real" universe we all live in. I don't *know* what happens after we die - though I have some beliefs on the subject, none of them are expressed in this story.
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Post by Kilarin on Feb 1, 2006 12:52:18 GMT -5
Absolutely understood! This is a Fantasy story, you aren't attempting to describe the "real" universe.
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gfb
Full Member
Posts: 76
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Post by gfb on Feb 1, 2006 21:25:02 GMT -5
Absolutely understood! This is a Fantasy story, you aren't attempting to describe the "real" universe. Same here. I, BTW, have nothing of true worth to add to this discussion, but I did want to chime in with the usual "gods I love a good discussion of theologic concepts." Still enjoying the comic, Xaa. Thought about binding this one for sale, yet? Could be a thought. If the Discussion thread stays in this vein, though, it may become more interesting (for me) than the comic. Good stuff.
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Post by Kilarin on Feb 2, 2006 22:53:57 GMT -5
gfb: Which is actually why I've been trying VERY hard to hold back on this. I LOVE a good philosophy/theology discussion. I could easily spend hours discussing whether Adam had eaten from the Tree of Life, and the immortality of the soul, BUT, none of that really has much to do with Xaa's fantasy universe, and I don't want to distract people from the story he is telling.
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Post by Xaa on Feb 4, 2006 17:34:23 GMT -5
Saturday *and* sunday's posts are up.
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sol77
Junior Member
Posts: 18
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Post by sol77 on Feb 8, 2006 21:23:06 GMT -5
I am wondering what she is thinking alright, but I also wonder what that green creature is thinking.
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Post by Xaa on Feb 8, 2006 21:32:53 GMT -5
I am wondering what she is thinking alright, but I also wonder what that green creature is thinking. That little green creature, incidentally, is "Meep." She was supposed to be the progenitrix for the race that God intended to have in his universe, but Satin's arrival botched everything. It's mentioned in the story that Meep began with the knowledge of good and evil, something Adam and Eve didn't - they needed a push from Satin. Also, it's mentioned that the original idea was a race of "Meeps" riding these herbivirous beasts (spined, so they can grip them and hang on) and wandering vast plains in peace. No hands == No violence == No war. Hell, it's hard to even work up a decent insult when your language is limited to "meep!"
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Post by Kilarin on Feb 8, 2006 21:55:03 GMT -5
sol77: She's being HONEST with Azr, but she's also manipulating her. My gut is that Satin isn't happy with that.
My HOPE is that Satin finds a way for everyone to win.
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sol77
Junior Member
Posts: 18
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Post by sol77 on Feb 9, 2006 10:39:00 GMT -5
That little green creature, incidentally, is "Meep." She was supposed to be the progenitrix for the race that God intended to have in his universe, but Satin's arrival botched everything. It's mentioned in the story that Meep began with the knowledge of good and evil, something Adam and Eve didn't - they needed a push from Satin. Also, it's mentioned that the original idea was a race of "Meeps" riding these herbivirous beasts (spined, so they can grip them and hang on) and wandering vast plains in peace. No hands == No violence == No war. Hell, it's hard to even work up a decent insult when your language is limited to "meep!" I had forgotten her name, or that she was a she for that matter. I find Meep to be an interesting character. What does it feel like that you were put aside by God because he had to change his plans, and because of Satin no less who is her company? Also it seems like Meep wold have no covenant with God and because of that can't enter Heaven. Or is she a "free" spirit because she has never died and could go wherever she'd like (if she could)? Also she seems friendly inclined to Satin despite it all. Uhm, I started re-reading to see what details I have missed but noticed that I can't load page 21 nor 45.
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