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Post by Xaa on May 4, 2006 13:14:17 GMT -5
Interesting thoughts. I think I'd be happy with a two-dimensional system - in other words, instead of worrying about creating a model that works and a graphics engine that can drive it, which will become obsolete before you finish programming it, what I think I'd be happy with is an engine that would allow you to input two-dimensional graphics of the characters and the world, with animation sequences. I know that sounds like three steps backwards, but bear with me, here. With Poser, I can easily create a character, give them weapons and armor, and run them through a set of basic animations - attack, parry, run, sit, lie down, get hit, die, etc. Record these animations as animated GIF's, and you're set. People can even download freeware modelers (like GMAX), create a character, create it's animation set frame-by-frame with screenshots and a GIF animator to compile the screenshots together. Creating a custom character becomes *easier*, not harder. Customizing existing characters that you don't have the models for becomes a matter of editing the GIF files. As far as the world, Imagine "Street Fighter", except you can go anywhere - areas are linked together, like in the old "King's Quest" games. Remember the city streets Chun Li would fight on? Her home base? Remember there were people in the background, alleyways leading to stage rear, stage right and stage left? Okay, now imagine you can go down those alleys. Hey - starts to get interesting. The world could be built in a modular manner. In other words the game system allows you to just create a backdrop (a really big animated GIF), set hot-spots for interaction (like merchants or doors to go to other areas). Simply declare what areas the doors lead to, and you can very quickly snap together an entire world, just from backdrops. Updating the world would be as simple as updating the backdrops, or the associated code for the hotspots. With a very low demand on the CPU for graphics, people on dialup connections can compete with people on high-speed connections in combat, simply because the data sent between the two computers is minimal - just whatever you're hitting on your keyboard. Even if this turns out to not be possible, a "turn-based" combat system can be devised which solves the problem of lag. Well, that's my thought, anyway.
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Post by Kilarin on May 4, 2006 19:02:52 GMT -5
I had sort of assumed most modern gaming images could import directly from poser. This sight has links to lots of game engines, including some that sound like they might be the 2d kind of thing you are talking about: members.tripod.com/gdata010/engines.htmBut Have you considered going for the original story game format and trying one of the free "Interactive Fiction" engines available? "Tads" www.tads.org/tads.htmTads includes graphics, digitized sound, hyperlink commands, and text coloring. "Hugo" www.generalcoffee.com/hugo.htmlHugo allows you to embed both graphics and video! "Interactive Fiction Markup Language" ifml.sourceforge.net/This one looks more limited in its options than TADS or Hugo, but lets you easily set up games that will play in your browser "Inform" www.inform-fiction.org/I7/Welcome.htmlThis is an older engine, still popular, but with fewer bells and whistles.
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Post by Xaa on May 4, 2006 19:16:04 GMT -5
I had sort of assumed most modern gaming images could import directly from poser. I wish, but no. Remember how GPG did it with DS1? Well, that's basically how all game engines do it. 3DSMAX, importer script, pay a royalty fee, you're in business. The other option that many pro game companies are using these days is the NetImmerse/Gamebryo system. This is EXTREMELY popular - though, at times, very problematic. It's used by Morrowind, and by Firaxis. The problem comes in when you start saying things like Firaxis did about Civ-4 - "Everything will be completely moddable!" Well, yes, everything IS moddable in Civ-4, except ONE thing - the models themselves. The NetImmerse/Gamebryo system is designed so that it CAN'T be modded, and there are no tools for it. Yes, someone reverse-engineered a tool for Morrowind, but 1) it doesn't work well at all (it's a hack), 2) it violates the NetImmerse EULA, 3) It only works with Morrowind models. Every other company who creates a model gets a unique encoding/encryption algorithm. Bottom line: Like it or not, most game companies are going with LESS moddable games, not more moddable. Allowing people to mod your game opens you up to the likes of Hillary & Co to jump on your case the moment someone makes a "nude" mod. Thanks - I'll look into it. I'm really more interested in interactive storytelling than open-ended wandering.
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Post by Xaa on May 5, 2006 5:25:44 GMT -5
Took a look at them, too limited. Like I said, think about the old "Street Fighter" games, and how they looked. You didn't have to type "go right" or "attack enemy", you just pushed the buttons. It was more visual. Let's face it, I can do better than these engines are doing just working with javascript, cookies, and HTML. Even better, you'd be able to "bookmark" with your browser where you were when you quit, and return to it later when you have time. Hmmm... You know, if I could get the kind of interaction that you have in Sid Meier's "Pirates!" from Firaxis out of HTML, I'd pretty much have it. Mmmm... Think "Myst" or some of the other "see it - click it" games. Except you don't have to click to move, you just poke buttons. Like say your numberpad. And you're looking at the character from a side-scrolling perspective, and watching them move and do things. Including fighting, which you control. From a coding perspective, it would be very simple to do - in essence, there's a graphic for the background on a "background" layer, perhaps a few more graphics for foreground objects in a "foreground" layer, a "player/monster" layer where the PC and NPC graphics are presented, and perhaps a "horizon" layer (or set of layers) which scroll at different rates to give the illusion of depth. From there, each area would be defined as a node, with definable exits the character can walk to (or up, or down, or whatever), objects on the "background" and "foreground" layers that the player can click on and interact with (like merchants in a town), etc. The character's actions are animated - as the player moves or interacts or talks or whatever, the graphic for the character reflects this, being swapped out with animated graphics that display the appropriate action - attacking, parrying, talking, falling down, etc. Mmm... I don't know if I can explain the idea any better than that. I only know that the links you gave are good, it's just that none of them are what I'm thinking about. They're too simplistic - I can do better in HTML with a bit of javascript and cookies.
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Post by Kilarin on May 5, 2006 7:30:04 GMT -5
So, what you are looking for is more like Pirates, Monkey Island, or Flight of the Amazon Queen, but with more combat. Hmmm, really seems like something like that should be available, although I don't think the ScummVM could handle the combat. I don't THINK it could. Not certain how you develop for it anyway. Hmmm...
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Post by cypherwulfe on May 5, 2006 18:07:26 GMT -5
Jim, you already paid for Torque?
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Post by Xaa on May 5, 2006 18:12:42 GMT -5
Jim, you already paid for Torque? Yes.
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Post by Blondin235 on May 8, 2006 20:08:36 GMT -5
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Post by Xaa on May 8, 2006 21:22:10 GMT -5
Problem: RM2K can't do what I want to do. See, I'm not talking about taking a step back to 1989 when cutting-edge tech was 16-bit games. I'm talking about a completely new concept, that both makes the game playable on virtually any machine because it's graphics requirements are low, and makes the modding easier because all modders have to do to get a character into the game is produce a set of animations (like with GIF animations) that show the character executing all the tasks a character can do in the game. Graphically, the above scene is easy to do for any machine. It only gets difficult and CPU-intensive when you say "the world is modeled in 3-D in memory and we can turn the camera to look at it from different angles." See what I mean? I'm not talking about a cheap two-dee game, I'm talking about a more sophisticated concept. PC's and mobs can be stored as animated files which are displayed on the screen. From a logical perspective, the world works like the old "nodes" in the old text adventures - they have 3-D connections, but you don't view them in 3-D, there's only one perspective point you can view them from (like how the old Capcom "Street Fighter" games used to work - side-scrolling). Exits and entrances can be marked, things you can interact with in the background (like merchants) you click on, and so on. The onoly thing is, the camera always faces one direction. The background is comprised of an immediate foreground, and three layers of background that scroll at different rates to give the illusion of depth. Going "north" on the screen would involve clicking on a door, an alleyway, a trail, etc. Going "east" or "west" would involve just walking to the edge of the screen (which would be two or three screen-widths wide). I hope this makes things a bit clearer - though, unfortunately, it's only making it more frustrating for me, because there are no game engines on the market that can do this.
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Post by cypherwulfe on May 12, 2006 18:50:49 GMT -5
I know you may scoff and laugh at this, but what about a mud or mush? Its all text yeah, but you can do lots with them now, especially if you use the new MXP hyperlink protocols.
Also, torgue, did it come with any help files at all? and what sites do you already know about for the help that is online? I am not a genius at programming, but I want to take a look at what is available out there for torque, and possibly see if I can be off assistance. No Xaa, I am not in any way suggestion I know more abou tthis than you do. I am only hoping that a different perspective might help the process.
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Post by Xaa on May 12, 2006 19:12:40 GMT -5
I know you may scoff and laugh at this, but what about a mud or mush? Mmm... Not what I'm going for, really. Yes, they were significantly unhelpful. The key problem, for me, is getting a model into the game. Everything they have on Torque presumes you already have managed that, the instructions for getting models into the game are, to say the least, sparse. There are three things preventing me from getting models into Torque: 1) Torque model limits are 450 polys. Though theoretically the engine can process about 20,000 polys, it can't export it. And bear in mind that even Pooka from Mageworld was something like 2,000 polys. And I don't want to make Pooka again, I want models that are more detailed. Like 20,000 to 45,000 polys. This is why I have been looking into game ideas that don't require 3D representation, but are instead graphics animation files (see above posts on this). 2) Torque models require a specific bone structure. You can't change it, you can't invent your own bone structure (like you can for DS), nothing. Torque models MUST be built a specific way. 3) The torque exporter for 3DSMAX is, to say the least, buggy. It wasn't made by GarageGames (the makers of torque), it's a hack made by a torque user, there is no support, and it doesn't work well. GarageGames wants you to spend money on their own preferred modeling platforms - which I am not willing to do. This is a hobby, not a profession. Bottom line: Torque was $100 I flushed down the toilet. Mistake, yes, but one I won't repeat. I appreciate your offer of assistance, but I'm just not interested in pursuing the Torque engine any longer - it isn't capable of doing what I want, it isn't flexible enough to do what I need, and it's too buggy to be worth my time and effort in fiddling with. What I would like, I showed in a previous post. Granted, the illustration kind of sucks, but hey, I whipped it up in ten minutes, try to see through the haste to what I'm getting at. A game doesn't have to allow you to rotate the camera to be a great game. What it has to do is capture your imagination, and that's a different thing.
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Post by cypherwulfe on May 17, 2006 19:02:45 GMT -5
www.devmaster.net/engines/Is a site, that lists 3d engines for games. I rad a couple, and thought it might prove fruitfull to you. I kinda liked the Ogre engine, which is really only a 3d rendering system. Hope that helps if you are interested still and looking. BTW, ogre is freeware. and it operates under the LGPL. The LGPG is a slightly modified GPL. What it means is, that you can use OGRE in any way you see fit, and sell your final product. They do ask if you make any changes to the coding, that you release teh changes to the community so as to better OGRE as a whole. They also ask that you put the OGRE log in a splash screen, or somewhere on the game, item you make for the advertisement. not required, but appreciated.
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Post by Xaa on May 17, 2006 21:25:25 GMT -5
BTW, Ogre is a graphics rendering engine, not a game engine. There is no provision for NPC AI, netplay, or even a player GUI. Nada - it's a graphics engine. Kind of like a poor-man's "Bryce3D."
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Post by Kilarin on Jun 4, 2006 22:02:44 GMT -5
My brother and Sister-in-law are big into MMORPGs. We went to lunch today for my folks anniversary and my brother wanted to bring my attention to somthing called "Minions Of Mirth". It's a MMORPG with several differences from the rest. A: you pay $30 once and get lifetime play (a monthly fee buys you more time though I think) B: you can also play this in SP mode if you wish. But this is the big one: C: you can modify the game with your own content (new spells, characters, maps, etc) and then host your own persistant world server for your new game world. My brother says that the documentation on modifying the game is apparently bad, BUT, that the forum group is supposed to be really good at helping people figure it out and get their own games going. Everyone admits that the graphics are a bit behind the curve, but they say the developers are working on improving that now. This entire game engine was apparently written by a very small team, mainly just two people. An article about MOMThe Mom home pageScreen ShotsThe Mom ForumsI've never played the game, but the modability factors, and the ability to host your own server with your own world, sounds.... interesting. Rather like something I remember Xaa suggesting once over on Siege Network back ages and ages ago.
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Post by Xaa on Jun 4, 2006 22:15:07 GMT -5
Hmmm... I'll give it some thought.
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